Welcome to Support. Before contacting us with your inquiries about the content of this website, please read the explanations below and try to find an answer to your question. If you cannot find the answer in support pages, then you may send an email to support@americanbulls.сom
with “Info Request” at the subject line, in English, which is the only language we can provide support for the moment. If you send an email in any other language, we will try to understand and answer your question using digital translators which may not be very satisfactory.
ABOUT THIS WEBSITE
- The System
A sophisticated code working at the background of this website collects the end of day data from several web sources on a daily basis for all the securities a few hours after the markets’ closing. The software initially analyzes the incoming data and filters out erroneous or suspicious numbers and makes necessary corrections. The second step is the analysis and detection of the candlesticks, candlestick patterns and their confirmation and stop loss levels. During this process, the confirmation status of the previously detected patterns is also checked and the out coming signals are posted.
The Delayed Intraday Module which is a facility for close monitoring of the session is either OFF or ON depending on the position of the closing price with respect to the confirmation - stop loss band.
Performing all these tasks and processing other calculations such as profitability and rating evaluations on the basis of 6, 12 and 24 month time intervals, as well as finding the performance values of each candlestick pattern for each and every security, etc. take another 10-30 minutes and finally the update of the website for the day is completed. In addition to all these, a specific special code working behind each webpage allows the user’s easy access to the Delayed Intraday Module, listings, charts, commentaries and other details displayed on the pages.
- Our Main Perspective
The main perspective shaping the signal system of this website stems from our experiences that extend into quite a few years and the current system is an output of countless simulations performed in different world markets. This system is not a trend following system, since such systems often lead to late entry or exit. Instead, it emphasizes the identification of the reversal points and is able to generate profits in even sideways and bearish markets. The primary tool used for this purpose is the Japanese candlestick patterns. The algorithm is able to recognize 84 different candlestick formations with high precision. Besides, it identifies the relevant candlesticks applicable to each particular security on daily basis and describes the candlesticks and the patterns briefly. Interested investors may visit our educational website www.candlesticker.com
for additional information about the candlesticks.
This website transforms the investor into a dynamic and vital element of the trading system in order to cope with the speed and the volatility of the markets. This is a feature unique only to this website. To accomplish this task, candlestick patterns are used as early alerts together with the intraday module’s ON/OFF positions. Intraday module is a facility provided for close monitoring of the intraday price activity during the session. The candlestick patterns detected by the system can only be confirmed under certain but simple pre-defined conditions. The suggested entry and exit points of our system are based on the proper confirmation of the patterns and the confirmation status can easily be followed by a quick glance to the readily available charts showing the currently valid buy, sell or stop-loss levels. If diligently used, this way of dealing with the stock market greatly enhances the chance of buying, selling or shorting at the right time. The task of the investor is simply to check the validity of these well-defined conditions and trade only in case of a confirmation.
There is no fundamental analysis in this site. You will not find balance sheets, news, expert opinions, comments or gossips here which are so conducive to manipulation and wrong interpretation. Our goal was to create a truly objective system excluding all human interference, including even us as well. The system prevents interference of human emotions with trading decisions which so often is the source of fallacious decisions.
- Bullish Confirmations
A bullish confirmation process starts when a bullish candlestick is detected and when the buy and stop loss levels of this pattern are established. The system continues to check the confirmation conditions for an indefinite period of time and ceases the search only when a new pattern is detected. In such a case, it means that the confirmation of the previous pattern failed and the system starts searching for the confirmation of the newly detected pattern.
There are two simple rules which validate the confirmation of a bullish pattern. The candlestick of a valid confirmation day must be white. Stated differently, the day must close above the opening price. An exact Doji (open = close) is not acceptable. This is the first rule. The second rule requires a stock price above the current buy level.
The following caveat applies regarding the bullish confirmation process. The system has the capability of detecting a certain unique case as a protective measure against unexpected market volatility. This case is a bullish stop loss pattern which is activated after the confirmation of a bearish pattern. Though a confirmed bearish pattern (a SELL or SHORT signal) normally signals a possible downward move, the prices may sometimes suddenly go up instead of going down and this may happen without the detection of a bullish pattern. Such an upward move may activate the stop loss level of the confirmed bearish pattern suggesting the immediate closing of bearish positions if there are any. In this case, the stop loss level starts acting as a confirmation level and if the two conditions for this level’s bullish confirmation are met, the system will signal a BUY signal this time. After the upside confirmation of a bullish stop loss, the previously confirmed bearish pattern and its sell level are immediately activated. Take note of the fact that, an upside confirmation of a bullish stop loss leading to a BUY signal is an exceptional case of a BUY signal which is not associated with a regular bullish pattern. So, the bearish pattern which continues to retain its status as the most recently detected pattern and its sell level, now assume the role of a protective measure against another such sharp reversal that may be observed without any notice after the stop loss originated BUY signal, but this time downwards.
- Bearish Confirmations
A bearish confirmation process, on the other hand, starts when a bearish candlestick is detected and when the sell and stop loss levels of this pattern are established. The system continues to check the confirmation conditions for an indefinite period of time and ceases the search only when a new pattern is detected. In such a case, it means that the confirmation of the previous pattern failed and the system starts searching for the confirmation of the newly detected pattern.
A bearish confirmation is also based on two simple rules. The candlestick of a valid bearish confirmation day must be black, which means that the day must close below the opening price. An exact Doji (open = close) is not acceptable. This is the first rule. The second rule requires a stock price below the sell level.
In some cases, a bearish stop loss pattern may be activated after the confirmation of a bullish pattern. A confirmed bullish pattern (a BUY signal) normally signals a possible upward move but prices may suddenly go down instead of going up and this may happen without the detection of a bearish pattern. Such a downward move may activate the stop loss level of the confirmed bullish pattern suggesting the immediate closing of long positions if there are any. In this case, the stop loss level starts acting as a confirmation level. The rules for downside confirmation of this level are again the two simple rules mentioned above. The system issues a SHORT or SELL signal if these two conditions are met. After the bearish confirmation, the previously confirmed bullish pattern which continues to retain its status as the most recently detected pattern and its buy level are immediately activated. So, the bullish pattern and its buy level now assume the role of a protective measure against another sharp reversal that may be observed without any notice after the stop loss originated SHORT or SELL signal, but this time upwards.
The logical sequence of signals is as follows:
[BUY – STAY LONG – SELL (SHORT) – STAY IN CASH (STAY SHORT) – BUY]
- If BUY comes after STAY IN CASH or right after SELL; that means the stock will be bought.
- If BUY comes after STAY SHORT or right after SHORT; that means the short positions (if applicable in this market) must be covered first and the stock must also be bought.
- If SELL comes after STAY LONG or right after BUY; that means the stock must be sold.
- If SHORT comes after STAY LONG or right after BUY; that means the long positions must be covered first and the stock must also be shorted (if applicable).
In rare instances, the system quits and discontinues analysis because the corrected stock data is not suitable for any meaningful candlestick pattern analysis. In such instances, the signals are as follows:
[QUIT – STAY OUT]
- If QUIT comes after STAY IN CASH or right after SELL; no action is required.
- If QUIT comes after STAY SHORT or right after SHORT; that means the short positions must be covered (if applicable in this market).
- If QUIT comes after STAY LONG or right after BUY; that means the stock must be sold.
When the stock data is restored enough to resume candlestick pattern analysis, STAY OUT turns into STAY IN CASH.
The system rates all the stocks in a stock market by assigning stars to them. The highest rating that a stock may receive is (5★) and the lowest is (1★) and some stocks are not rated. The ratings are generated and continuously updated on the basis of the trading performance in the last 6, 12 and 24 months. Please take note of the fact that the rating of a stock may differ across these different time intervals.
The philosophy behind the ratings is simple. The trading performance of a stock based on signals in the chosen time interval is compared to the average market performance in the same time interval. A high rating indicates an above average performance with respect to the market and vice versa. However, the average performance of the markets in a given time interval may differ widely from stock exchange to stock exchange. So, a high (5★) rating in NYSE may signify, for example, a more modest 50% gain, while a high (5★) rating in OTCBB may signify a spectacular 600% gain in the same time interval.
The table of ratings and performances show the hypothetical gain in a stock which a trader would be able to realize assuming that he/she trades completely on the basis of signals. As such, the rating jointly measures the system based gain as well as the conformity of the stock to our system. This is an important point, because a high performing stock is expected to behave similarly in the future since its reversal points are better identified by the candlestick patterns. Apparently, this is an outcome based on what happened in the past and it does not provide full guarantee for the future. We only expect that past will repeat itself in the future leading to similar gains.
The following caveats must be considered seriously by the potential users of this website:
Some of the reported gains (especially in over the counter stocks and pink sheets) are associated with extremely low liquidity. Achievement of such gains may be practically very difficult in a real-life scenario. We strongly suggest the consideration of volume and liquidity while picking stocks.
We want to warn the investors about a basic tenet of finance, which says that an extraordinary spectacular gain usually means a high level of risk indicating a potential big loss in case of a very sudden volatility burst usually seen in opening, and which may not be immediately detected by the system.
HOW TO USE THIS WEBSITE
Our first recommendation for novice investors with only a scanty knowledge of technical analysis and who just has begun trading in stock markets is to sign up for this website. Secondly, we do not advise short trades for beginners, because short trades are extremely risky and may result in big losses. The third and most important recommendation is to buy only those stocks that are recommended by our system and sell them immediately whenever the system issues a SELL signal.
Our website has three pages in which we recommend stocks. These pages are non-members’ home page, members’ home page and our Twitter page. The system suggests stocks for tracking pattern confirmation, too, but chasing confirmation for the detected candlestick patterns may require some experience. So, our advice for novice investors is to focus primarily on the ready BUY signals issued by the system. When we recommend a stock to BUY, the best course of action for a beginner would be to open the signal page of the recommended stock, study it carefully, and then decide and add the selected stock to his or her portfolio. After opening long positions, the beginner must continue to closely monitor the system and close long positions as soon as a SELL signal is issued.
The prescription for beginners is simple and clear. BUY only the stocks that are recommended by the system. Then follow these stocks in order to see if a new signal is issued or not. Immediately close long positions in case of a SELL signal and start looking for new BUY recommendations.
- Experienced Investors
Experienced investors with sufficient background in technical analysis and candlestick patterns and who have been trading stocks for sufficient time should carefully examine the stocks that are recommended by our system on Members’ Home Page. On this page we do not only suggest stocks to BUY and SHORT but we also highlight stocks with newly detected bullish and bearish patterns. The best possible course of action for experienced investors is to add these stocks to their portfolio and then closely monitor their confirmation status. The required precision that will allow trading these stocks at prices very close to the confirmation levels can be achieved this way only. If the investors prefer to pick the stocks themselves, a proper approach in this case would be to use the signal list and the confirmation list which provide powerful filtering and sorting facilities.
The signal update and market outlook commentaries placed at the signal page is a valuable source of information that should not be overlooked. The pattern and signal history and the last 6-month’s chart on the confirmation page should be carefully examined to get a clear idea about the technical character of the security. Another unique tool which is provided in this website is the delayed intraday module which closely tracks the confirmation status of the detected patterns and which serves to the purpose of catching the most advantageous trading price in actual trading. Though the module works with half an hour delay, it still is an exceptional tool in pinpointing the right time to place an order by vividly illustrating the single intraday candlestick together with confirmation and stop-loss levels of the relevant pattern. What an experienced trader is supposed to do during the trading hours is explained under the module with short and clear comments. The chance of a false trade which is quite a common event in the chaotic world of the stock markets will be definitely minimized if the investor has enough rigor and patience to first consider all of the available above mentioned information prior to placing a definite bet in the market.
Our website also provides pattern performance list of stocks and the pattern page of each and every stock in our database. Though these advanced pages are essentially designed for professional investors, they may well be used by the experienced investors as a further aid in objectively determining the possible success of a confirmed pattern in a stock, since they show how all patterns and each observed pattern historically performed in terms of confirmation success and trading success.
PAGES FOR NON-MEMBERS
- Registration Page
Registration is free and simple. By simply clicking the link on the top left corner you can open this page and register in a few seconds. Members are able to login to all of the bulls.com© family websites.
- Home Page
Technical analysis includes a wide array of different methods but its goal is simple. It is all about what stocks to buy or sell (or short in certain cases). Our system suggests several ways of coping with these questions. One efficient way is to track the overbought / oversold stocks on a daily basis. A sophisticated algorithm performs this function and picks the stocks promising a good return. The main entry page of the website is spared for these stocks and their charts. The algorithm summarized below depends on a simple but proven logic.
In case of bullish suggestions, the algorithm searches the database for highly rated oversold (cheap) stocks that have declined the most since the last SELL or SHORT signal. If a newly detected bullish pattern is also associated with one of these stocks, then the system suggests tracking of this stock for a possible bullish confirmation. If the pattern was already confirmed and a BUY signal was generated, then the stock is recommended for immediate buying. In this case, the stock should not be sold until the next signal.
In a similar manner, the algorithm searches the database for highly rated overbought (expensive) stocks that surged up the most since the last BUY signal to issue a bearish suggestion. If a newly detected bearish pattern is also associated with one of these stocks, then the system suggests tracking of this stock for a possible bearish confirmation. If the pattern was already confirmed and a SELL signal was generated, then the stock is recommended for immediate selling. In this case, the investor is expected to stay in cash until the next signal.
- Signal List
This list, which is the default navigation page for all the markets and indexes for non-members, is focused on signals. There is a signal list for each market. The user may easily go to the relevant signal page by simply clicking on the ticker symbols. Signal lists are updated daily, a few hours after the market’s closing.
- Signal Page
The information provided on this page about the security is based on its end of day data and is updated daily. This page displays a brief signal update and a market outlook, as well as a candlestick chart showing the last pattern detected by the system, with a short description. The user may also find the performance rating and the profitability of the security with a detailed signal history on this page. The signal history is reported on the basis of performance in the last 6, 12 and 24 months.
- Symbol Search
The user searching for website information about any specific stock or index, can access this information directly with the aid of the symbol search box that is located at the right, just under the horizontal menu bar at the top. The search box is simple and easy to use. All the users have to do is, to enter the symbol or the name of the security as far as they remember and then just click enter or click the search button. If the search box finds the security, then they will be directed to the signal page of the security. In case of multiple results they have to click on the symbol of the security that they are looking for. If the security cannot be found then they will be warned by a message informing that the result of the search is negative.
- Other Pages
There are other pages related to technical, administrative and legal issues. We highly recommend you to take a look at them and read before using this website. You can open these pages with a single click from the bottom menu bar. These pages are:
- About Us
PAGES FOR MEMBERS
- Home Page
- Site Map
- Important Links
On this page, an innovative stock picking algorithm that evaluates the relation between the rating of a stock and the stock’s best performing patterns is used. This may be a more risky and relatively more complex way of specifying the best possible stock pick, but it has the merit of being based on objective historical data and events. Despite the complexity of the calculations, these stocks are picked every day, and the members' home page is spared for these stocks and their charts. The following is a concise summary of what is done at the background.
In case of bullish suggestions, the algorithm searches the database for highly rated stocks with newly detected bullish patterns. The system, however, considers only the best performing patterns on the basis of objective historical evidence. Stocks satisfying these criteria are suggested by the system for tracking of a possible confirmation of the bullish pattern. If the pattern was already confirmed and a BUY signal was generated, then the stock is recommended for immediate buying. In this case, the stock should not be sold until the next signal.
In a similar vein, the algorithm searches the database for highly rated stocks with newly detected bearish patterns in order to issue a bearish suggestion. The system, again, considers only the best performing patterns. Stocks satisfying these criteria are suggested for tracking of a possible confirmation of the bearish pattern. If the pattern was already confirmed and a SHORT signal was generated, then the stock is recommended for immediate short sale. In this case, the short positions should not be covered until the next signal.
- Confirmation Status List
This list, which is the default navigation page for all the markets and indexes, displays the patterns, their confirmation and stop loss levels and the intraday confirmation status. There is a confirmation status list for each market. The list’s default sorting is 24-months star rating in descending order. The list can also be sorted by symbol as well as other rating intervals and besides it can be filtered by pattern, status or module. Status column shows the delayed intraday confirmation status during the session hours if the module is ON. The user may easily go to the relevant confirmation pages by simply clicking on the ticker symbols. Confirmation status list is updated daily, while the group of columns located under the Delayed Intraday heading is updated at 30 second intervals throughout the session.
- Signal List
This list is focused on signals. There is a signal list for each market. The list’s default sorting is 24-months star rating in descending order. The user, however, may opt for alternative sorting by symbol, other rating intervals or volume. The module column shows whether the intraday confirmation module is ON or OFF. The list can be filtered by signal or module. The user may easily go to the relevant signal page by simply clicking on the ticker symbols. Signal lists are updated daily, a few hours after the market’s closing.
- Pattern Performance List
This page that is designed for advanced users, displays general historical performance of candlestick patterns for each stock or index. It is the third navigation page for all the markets and indexes. There is a pattern performance list for each market. The list’s default sorting is the Total Net % profit per trade in descending order. The list can also be sorted by all the other columns. The user may easily go to the relevant pattern page by simply clicking on ticker symbols. Pattern performance list is updated daily, a few hours after the market’s closing.
- Confirmation Page
This page displays the evolution of the security’s candlestick patterns, their confirmations and resulting signals. A detailed chart on this page shows all the confirmed/unconfirmed patterns detected in the last six months with all the signals and their price levels. Below this chart, you can find the pattern history of the security since 1/1/2010, with all the patterns and signals as well as their relevant levels and dates in detail. The chart and the history are updated daily. The delayed intraday module located at the right, however, is updated at 30 second intervals during trading hours. The module shows the active current confirmation and stop-loss levels before the session opens. During the session, it displays a single candlestick representing the delayed intraday price action and explains the current confirmation status with a brief commentary.
- Signal Page
The security information provided on this page is based on end of day data and is updated daily. This page displays a brief signal update and a detailed market outlook, as well as a candlestick chart showing the last pattern detected by the system, with a short description. The member may also find the performance rating and the profitability of the security with a detailed signal history on this page. The signal history is reported on the basis of performance in the last 6, 12 and 24 months. The user may navigate to the confirmation and pattern pages of the security using the text menu located just above the daily signal. He/she has the option of adding/removing the security to/from his/her portfolio or watch list by clicking the relevant buttons located at the top right corner.
- Pattern Page
This is the performance list of the candlestick patterns that has been detected since 1/1/2010 in the history of the security. The list’s default sorting is the Total Net % profit per trade in descending order, for bullish and bearish patterns separately. The list can be sorted by all of its columns. Pattern performance page is daily updated in a few hours after the market’s closing.
- Symbol Search
The user searching website information about any specific stock or index can find this information directly with the aid of the symbol search box that is located at the right, just under the horizontal menu bar at the top. The search box is a little wider and more detailed but it is a very easy and useful tool that takes the user directly to the required page. As listed above, there are three different pages for a security. These are signal, confirmation, and pattern pages. In the search for a security, the member has to choose the type of page according to the information he or she needs, enter part or all of the company name, or if he/she knows the symbol enter the symbol and then either click enter or the search button. In case of multiple results the user has to click on the symbol of the security that he or she is looking for. If the security cannot be found then the search will end negative with a warning message.
- Portfolio & Watch List
These two pages are similar to the confirmation status list but they include only the securities that are currently held by the member and the securities that the member is currently following. These lists contain important information such as the last trade, the average price of the last trade, the current signal, the pattern and the benchmark price of the pattern (buy, sell or stop loss level). Status column located under the Delayed Intraday group shows the delayed intraday confirmation status during the session hours if the Module is ON. The list can be sorted by Symbol, Signal, Pattern, Status and Module. The user may easily go to the relevant confirmation pages by simply clicking on the ticker symbol. The page is updated daily while the group of columns located under the Delayed Intraday heading is updated at 30 second intervals throughout the session at both pages.
- Membership Advantages
We encourage you to take full advantage of our website by registering. Anyone can register provided that he or she agrees to use this website under the terms of services described in TOS. It just takes only your name, surname and an email address to set up your user password. Americanbulls.com LLC believes in protecting the privacy of the users of this website. Information that you provide during registration is held in strict confidence and never provided to any third party. Click here
After you have created your account you will have full access to all of the pages listed in the “Pages for Members” section above and you will be able to manage your own portfolio and watch list. Besides, you will be able to sign in and use with the same account all the 27 bulls.com© family websites listed at our Important Links page, analyzing 44 stock exchanges from all over the world.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
- The prices displayed on this website are the closing prices of yesterday. Why are not they updated during the session?
“Day” is the relevant time unit that is used for the candlesticks, patterns and signals issued on the bulls.com© family websites. A daily candlestick requires the day’s opening, highest, lowest and closing values in order to be considered as a valid pattern. Hence, the system can identify a candlestick pattern only after the session is closed and all the bulls.com© family websites are updated after the closing. The intraday data, which is only used to closely follow the temporary status of the confirmation of a pattern during the trading hours, is unfortunately not real time. The intraday prices taking place on all the listings, modules, portfolio and watch lists are delayed by 15 to 30 minutes. If they deem it appropriate, investors ought to follow the intraday data using their own sources (data vendors, brokers, banks, other websites and platforms, etc.).
- Could there be a change in the ON/OFF status of the Delayed Intraday Module during the session?
Yes, the “ON/OFF” status may change during the session as a result of the day’s intraday volatility. For the Delayed Intraday Module to be “ON”, in case of a bullish candlestick pattern, the prices must be above the pre-defined stop loss level or in case of a bearish pattern the prices must be below the stop loss level. Otherwise, the module is “OFF”. The module is marked “ON” or “OFF” at site update according to the position of the closing price with respect to the stop loss level. This way the investor knows which stocks are at the range of confirmation beforehand by checking the module’s status and may then get ready for the next session. The investor must continue checking the module’s status after the opening of the session, keeping in mind that it may easily change during the session.
- The confirmation status displayed in the Delayed Intraday Module changes during the session. Does this suggest waiting until the end of the session before placing a trade?
The primary task of the Delayed Intraday Module is to notify the members about the progress of the confirmation status during the session. It is only a temporary delayed report about the current confirmation status rather than a definite trading suggestion and it should not be understood as an advance notification made before the closing of the session. The algorithm continuously re-evaluates the confirmation status during the session on the basis of delayed incoming data, to see whether the conditions of confirmation are fulfilled or not at that moment. It is up to the investor to decide after a careful consideration of the current news and other political/economic information besides the confirmation status which functions only as a temporarily valid aid subject to change during the session. If the investor has doubts about the validity of the confirmation status and cannot give a decision, then our recommendation is to wait until the end of the session.
- What if I hesitate and fail to trade during the session and the day ends with a confirmation?
This is normal in the chaotic environment of the stock markets. Nobody can act faster than the markets! The philosophy of our system, however, requires that the signals following confirmed patterns should be definitely implemented. The relevant question is whether the investor will be able to trade at a price close to the confirmation level, or not. The market usually offers this chance after the confirmation and may even provide an opportunity for trading at a better price. If this is not the case, we suggest a careful examination of the confirmed pattern’s page at Candlesticker.com, and the pattern page of the security. These sources provide valuable information about the statistical performance of the pattern in the market as a whole and in that particular security. Our suggestion is to avoid trading if the historical total net gain of that pattern is lower than or very close to the current change, since this usually implies that the expected profit in this security is already realized.
- How are average buying and selling prices calculated after the confirmation of a pattern?
According to the rules of confirmation, the price of the security must cross above the BUY level or cross below the SELL level for a valid confirmation. How far they cross these levels is calculated by our algorithm during the daily update. This price interval may be a tick or a few couple of ticks and sometimes bigger, depending on the price structure of the stock on the confirmation day. This interval may change when the stock price is corrected due to divisions etc., but its proportion to the stock price remains always unchanged. The Delayed Intraday Module, however, works differently. It starts signaling the label “TEMPORARILY CONFIRMED” as soon as the prices cross the confirmation level within the rules of confirmation. Since the delayed intraday prices are real market prices, they usually are more advantageous than the average buy and sell prices reported at the end of the day and displayed on the signal history tables.
- Which rating interval is more favorable for selecting stocks?
The stock rating in our system is calculated on the basis of signal performance in the last 6, 12 and 24-month time intervals. Which interval is more appropriate depends on the investor’s character, risk tolerance and trading habits. The 6-month rating is a more valid reference for the short term swing traders while the 24-month rating may be suggested for long term traders. The 12-month rating can be used by both. Investors, by examining all the three ratings of a security, may have a clear idea on how the success of our signal system evolves from long term to short term. Another efficient way of using the ratings may be to focus on a particular rating (e.g. 6 months) while keeping an eye on the others for the selection of a stock.
- Can I use the signals for day trade?
Our answer is negative! Candlestick signals and intraday confirmation follow up are not designed for day traders. The information provided in this website may even be misleading for them. They might still want to use our website regardless of this note of caution. No problem. They can use it as a reference, but in this case they have to be extremely careful!